Walter, the bootstrapping knowledge is not a single document. It’s a library. Can all knowledge be formalized? No. But enough may be. It’s worth trying the experiment.
Posted by Kevin Kelly on February 21, 2008 at 10:41 AMI’m not clear on whether you mean to imply that all the knowledge necessary to restart civilization could be captured “formally.” Various writers disagree on the extent to which you can capture knowledge formally, but my impression is that they’d mostly agree that something on the scale of civilization has too much tacit connectedness to be bootstrapped from a single document. I agree that significant “formal attractors” could be reproduced….whether a self-reproducing civilization could ever result is less clear.
Posted by WalterRSmith on February 18, 2008 at 7:54 PMThis actually reminds me somewhat of the Young Lady’s Illustrated Primer in “The Diamond Age,” which made an initially illiterate girl into a queen. Of course, she started with spoken language and knowledge of some stories.
How exactly would this go down? Say you start with a post-apocalyptic scenario, with civilization reduced to a hunter-gatherer level - and then what? How does the book come to have an influence? Does someone just pick it up out of curiosity? And then what, does it teach them a language? How durable does this thing have to be? Would it be shaped like a monolith? (Kidding on that last one…sorta.) What if the very fact that the civilization acquires all this knowledge “from Heaven” inevitably screws it up, makes it overdependent?
Hell, all the monolith in 2001 had to do to kick-start humanity was teach them how to think and how to use tools. Then it just vanished.
Posted by Shaye Horwitz on December 6, 2006 at 2:24 AMI enjoyed reading about this idea (as I have when reading anything related to The Long Now). I found some similarities in efforts at my workplace, a huge auto manufacturer. We have been trying to capture all of our “working knowledge” to facilitate training and recovery from catastrophic events.
My questions about the Forever Book is:
1) Who is the audience for such a document? This is critical to determine the medium or media used in the book’s construction. If your audience is alien, pre-literate, illiterate, etc., then spoken/written word will not work. The book will have to be visual, at least up to the point of teaching language, assuming the audience can even develop language. And a visual Forever Book assumes that the audience can see things and perceive them as we do now.
2) What is the purpose for such a document? Of course, no matter the purpose, there are huge educational benefits to just creating the thing - the best way to learn is to teach. But if the purpose is a back-up for future generations of humanty after some catastrophe, the Forever Book takes on a more narrow form and I think is quite useful. Other than that, I’m not sure what it would be good for, but it is quite a captivating idea.
Posted by Bryan Arnold on August 17, 2006 at 6:28 PMA very interesting idea. But, the first ‘Forever Book’ - the start of the Technium - may have started with a creature who wanted something badly. And it could not get it without a tool.
So… the smallest Forever Book may be nothing more than desire.
Posted by Ronald Snijder on April 26, 2006 at 10:19 PMNo, Lance, the Forever Book does not deliver, or try to deliver, utopia. It is an unfolding, a process that never finishes, and that is, because it is real, a flawed, imperfect tradeoff of various benefits and their side effects — and many unexpected things.
Posted by Kevin Kelly on March 14, 2006 at 5:59 PMMy comments are less about metallurgy-anvil-machines unfolding and more about semiotics. And I’m mixing content levels by bringing up religious fundamentalism as part of the manual interpretation process. I realize Forever Books are more towards road building than happiness or personal mission statement building.
Coming from the USA Southeast, and raised in an environment where protestant fundamentalism was a norm, I saw how a large book took on a high degree of effect in building the society.
I am concerned about the interpretation/extrapolation process in a Forever Book. A circular response loop starts between the source and interpreter. I guess it is that unfolding ripple effect that my post is pointing at. And this sometimes invisible loop is intertwined with the stuff called anvils and satellites.
I recommend a Forever Book (especially the feral version which is what we needed in my home country of Arkansas) contains some help, e.g. interpolation, in avoiding traps of misuse of some instruction statement.
At a meta-level, in your quest into the Technium questions,
maybe the question I am raising is related to your muse on the Amish selection of technology, and also the
happiness/consumerism ratio. What cycles of thought/lifestyle/epistemology cause the herky-jerky motion of unfolding the ForeverBook into its iterative stages?
One of your central tenets of evolution is central to this undependable punctuation of unfolding : disequilibrium. I guess my post, at first, was an expression of discomfort over the tension supplied by disequilibrium. But I can see a level of cross-purposes where the Forever Book writer may have to make a decision that is a hard one. If the goal is civilization, how much disequilibrium is the book creator comfortable in generating? Should this Forever Book aim for utopia? Or the world like we have now? I could try to be rhetorically clever and say “should it have a social goal?”, but that conveniently forgets that the book has to have a goal.
Is the summation in the book “Out of Control”, or is there more to it? I guess thats why you’re writing this new book.
Finally , its ironic that the Forever Book concept comes along so far upstream from the origin source of civilization. It is in of itself a paradox.
Posted by Lance Miller on March 14, 2006 at 2:57 PMYes, Jochen, there would have to be different books — different seeds — for different staring fields. A stark moon, or a biologically rich planet, or our own earth in some dark age.
And I agree that recreating a DVD is a gigantic undertaking. But it is not impossible. And it may be that if you only wanted to teach how to make a DVD and nothing else, it may be a shorter path then you think. (It’s easy to tell someone how to do a cataract surgery if that was only what you needed to learn.)
However you do ask a reasonable question about survival in the development time. A seed that took 50 years to fruit would need to convey the essentials of surviving for 50 years.
Posted by Kevin Kelly on March 3, 2006 at 8:43 PMInteresting idea. Two thoughts on that: First, as you already mention briefly, there probably would have to be many Forever Books, because they depend on what you already have. As the chicken egg needs a mother to incubate it, the Forever Book needs at least some natural fiber to created paper from etc. Not very helpfull if you are stranded on the moon or something. So where is the boundary between what you take for granted and what can be taken from the environment? Can a Neandertal man use your book? Maybe you have to teach him language first and writing? I can imagine that it would be possible to create such a book though. Maybe for a kind of Robinson who learns how to create such a book again on his island. He’ll need a few years, but he’ll be able to do this. But the DVD is much much more difficult. You need actual computer chips and chip factories to do this, probably one of the technically most difficult things to do. We only had DVDs for a few years now. So it would be impossible for one person, even a thousand persons to create this from scratch in a few years. You’ll need many people and probably many generations. But if your instructions are to be complete, don’t you have to teach those people also how to stay alive in the meantime? How to feed themselves when half of the population is working on this DVD project. How to not kill each other when they disagree. You have to teach them how to communicate effectively, how to travel to other parts of the world to get raw material, to get this material out of the ground, to build international trade, basically you have to teach them how to build a society. Because only a complex society like ours has the means to (re)build the Technium. So there have to be many things in this DVD, not only those things you directly need to make a DVD but all the things that support those things, on those that support those… On the other hand: The first time we build this Technium all we started from was the big bang. Maybe thats all the instructions needed. It worked the first time around, it might work again. So maybe your seed is really small, just a few laws of physics?
Posted by Jochen Topf on March 3, 2006 at 5:11 PMType the characters you see in the picture above.





You take as a given that all books available today would be sufficient to recreate civilization. If we go back a thousand years, “all books in the world” is an amount we could wrap our minds about, but would it be sufficient to recreate the civilisation of that day? If not, when did the libraries attain this critical mass?
Considering how little we understand of the dynamics of our own cultures, why wikipedia works, how some countries avoid war, e.t.c how can we know that some of our achievements are all documented in books and not ingrained in the somewhat accidental cultural “system configuration” itself?
As an apropos, Jorge L. Borges wrote a story about a weed-like forever book which replaced one culture with another.
Posted by Robert on April 29, 2008 at 4:57 AM